The importance of team alignment in building an early stage startup with Charles Allard Jr. (Delvify)

About the guest

Charles Allard Jr. is the founder of Delvify, a visual AI solution that helps vendors generate more sales through their e-commerce platforms. Charles has been on both sides of the investment and startup world, and understands what makes startups tick. He believes in building a startup that is optimised for exit, and encourages founders to find mentors who can help accelerate their personal growth.

Find him here:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/charlesallardjr/

Books, tools, people, frameworks mentioned in this episode:

• Delvify.ai – http://delvify.ai/
• Google Lens – https://lens.google.com/
• Shopify – https://www.shopify.com.sg/
• Muji – https://www.muji.com/sg/
• Muda – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muda_(Japanese_term)
• Bauhaus – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauhaus
• Hubspot – https://www.hubspot.com/
• Medium – https://medium.com/
• Greg Shepard – https://www.linkedin.com/in/gregshepard
• BOSS methodology – https://www.gregoryshepard.com/boss-book
• Basecamp – https://basecamp.com/
• Convertkit – https://convertkit.com/
• Warren Buffet – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Buffett
• Uber – https://www.uber.com/
• WeWork – https://www.wework.com/
• Kiva Robotics – https://robohub.org/tag/kiva-systems/
• Lee Kuan Yew – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew
• Elon Musk – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk
• Jack Ma – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ma
• Andy Warhol – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Warhol

Charles Allard Jr 0:00
The real key is to align all of your different bits of the business. So if you’re a technology company, you have sort of like engineering your product, you’ve got sales and marketing group together different if you want. So each of those has to be aligned towards submission so that if everyone is not rolling in the same way, the company is going to fall apart.

Ricky Willianto 0:22
That was Charles Allard, the CEO of Delvify sharing his view on why it is so important for a founder to align their team with the vision and mission. In this episode, Charles also talks about why he optimises his startup for an exit. And while he advises every single founder to find a network of mentors that can accelerate their personal growth. listen more to Charles journey in building delta phi in this episode of growth multiplier.

My name is Ricky Willianto, co founder of Ravenry and the host of the growth multiplier podcasts. Through this podcast, I hope to uncover the pathways, startups and companies have taken in their journey of growth, share some stories from the trenches, and hopefully identify patterns and hacks that can be replicated by businesses in Asia and the rest of the world. I hope you enjoy the show.

Thanks, Charles, for joining us today, let’s get you to share a little bit about yourself. And maybe tell us a little bit about what Delvify does.

Charles Allard Jr 1:18
Sure. Well, thank you so much, Ricky, I’m so happy to be talking with another entrepreneur like yourself, I’m American is, as you might tell from my accent, I first came to Asia in 1969. I was very, very, very small then. And I’ve been here most of my life for three generations of my family who have called Hong Kong home, I attended a Japanese graduate school, I lived in Singapore when I was young, when there were still kampongs. But I can tell you, it looks a lot nicer. Now, professionally, I’ve worked in investment banking, and finance for most of my life, I co authored a couple books, I was the chairman of Winton capital, Asia, and I built their Asian business from basically zero to about $8 billion, set up the first foreign advisor hedge fund in China. And in terms of tech, you know, I started my first tech company about seven, eight years ago. And this is third attempt at it. And I’ve also been an investor in in other tech companies. And I continue to really enjoy, you know, doing both sides of the business, which is I think, a little bit rare when many companies are run by people who are, you know, only entrepreneurs, or if they’re a VC, they’ve only been in finance and don’t have much actual experience. So I’m experienced the pain on on both sides of the fence. And I think that gives me sort of a unique perspective.

Ricky Willianto 2:38
Tell us a bit about Delvify then like, you know why you chose this? What is the company?

Charles Allard Jr 2:43
So the current one is we’re trying to use AI to reduce wastage in the fashion and textile industry. So the main product, you’ll see if you visit our website, www double fi.ai, you will discover is a unique sort of AI solution that allows a consumer to take a picture and match it against all of the products that an ecommerce site might have. You seen this in places props, like Google lens, or Shopify and some of the other platforms have this type of tool. But but it’s it’s not very common, because it’s really difficult to do AI really well and to deliver scalable solutions. And so we embed this into a recommendation tool. If you’re a brand, what is the inventory that you want to move? How do we nudge your clients to help reduce your inventory? And how do you help your clients make better choices about the products that you have? So you want to nudge your clients using a bit of behavioural science to buying the more sustainable products and buy the products that are used and recyclable or, or sustainable materials, if we can then feed back to the retailer to the merchant, these are the types of sustainable products that are selling really, really well. And here’s the way to sort of nudge your customers to buy more of that at the same time. We’re reducing the wastage in your overall inventory for the planet, it helps, you know, avoid having to throw that stuff onto a big bonfire and burn it or buried in some landfill somewhere. So help me understand this in I guess a more practical way. So visually, you’re you’re deploying visual AI to help customers identify, you know, products that are more sustainable. And at the same time you’re using it to help the vendors or suppliers, kind of like you know, build inventory of products that are more in demand. Is that correct? Yes, through the visual AI, you’re able to find the products that you like, and we can match those against the sustainable products within a client’s inventory and that we can be subject to some really simple rules such as you know, it must be products that have 25% more sustainable fabric. And through that, you’re you’re able to encourage your

clients to buy a little bit more that sustainable. And the company itself is able to feed that back to the buyers and designers. Yeah. And in addition to that you actually nudging people to make a better decision as well for themselves. Well, that’s right, that that’s really something that we all we all want to do, and and why a lot of these, a lot of the apps that you see developed today really help with that. So it’s the tool that says, Oh, you were doing such a good job yesterday on your exercise, can you do five minutes more? Oh, this is a great time to think about brushing your teeth, are those sort of you know, those sort of nudges really help you do things that you want to do in your in your own life and, and it’s hard to sort through the vast amount of data that’s surrounding us, we’re bombarded by visual data from the phones that we have to the TVs that are around us, to the billboards, to just everything designed to show us new and stimulating information. And sometimes it’s really hard to sort through this. And this is what AI does really well. And machine is a very good tool for organising, and finding insight in vast volumes of data. And so for emergent, that vast volume of data can be the data around sustainable products, and we can help people make those choices.

Ricky Willianto 6:26
So tell us a bit Charles, how has this helped your customers so far? Do you have any kind of like, you know, tangible results you can share with us with regards to you know, cost savings, because you’re helping people identify better inventory the stock, or like, you know, customer satisfaction, because you’re helping people hone in to find the things that they like and buy more of them are

Charles Allard Jr 6:45
we seeing really from from customers. And when I say customers, I’m referring specifically to the users, not the merchants, that they’re really engaged with the visual AI. And they express a high level of satisfaction with this. And you’ve seen, obviously, that sales figures, depending on the merchant can be anywhere from 20% to five times more in sales. And that’s a huge range. And it really depends entirely on you know, on how the merchants is set up. But what it does show is that in almost all cases, there is a positive impact on the customer satisfaction. And the reason is that we’re primarily visual animals, and we respond to sort of the stimuli and we understand much more quickly with our eyes than we do with any of our other senses. If you’re searching through a vast quantity of similar looking objects, but you want to get the thing that just has the colour that looks just so or has a little bit of spots on you know, stripes on the side, and maybe has a little bit of off the shoulder, right, it’s really hard to describe that in words and to do a search, but visually, you know what it is really quickly. And so through a recursive iterative process that we’ve embedded into our models, you can then be searching through an entire product catalogue and getting yourself really, really quickly down to the exact product that you want. And so all of our all of our merchants have expressed, you know, satisfaction at the at the improvement in the customer, cx cx is really what you what you’re all about is as emergent, you have two things that you’re trying to do as a brand, you’re trying to identify the people who share your values, right, you’ll have some certain value. So Mooji, for example, is very famous for having one of the values of no mood. And the other part of it is the CX. So once you have once you have your values, and the customer see that they share those values, they want to be able to interact with you in some sort of way. And the primary mode that people are going to interact with a brand when when it’s a retail company is either going in shop and we were a tech company, so we encourage more online shopping. And if it’s online shopping, then the single most important thing is the CX so if you think of something like Amazon, which is an incredibly focused and very, very successful company, almost their entire business is focused around delivering these recommendation tools. And the recommendations can be best selling also not with most trending these sort of things that are in there. And they’re all really easy to use. You see the scroll bar you’re like Oh, I like that. Well let me click on that and then it brings you somewhere else and you can see you know that was also bought with this I’ll just do one click that one click and Amazon fantastic CX, right. So everyone who’s running a retail site online, that CX is so core, that customer experience that someone has through using your product or using your the applications that you have on your website that is so important to retaining the clients that have expressed their shared

Unknown Speaker 10:00
values with you.

Ricky Willianto 10:01
I’m curious to hear about how you’ve kind of been able to acquire customers to get the word out about Delvify, what are your plans in scaling the company further,

Charles Allard Jr 10:11
we try and focus on the information channels, the watering holes, for the people that we see as a decision maker, someone who will say, yeah, that’s the, that’s the product I want to use within my within my tech stack, we’re talking with like the chief marketing officers, or we can make sort of a case to the CFO, if you will. So the people who really understand what it is that we’re trying to do, we use LinkedIn to to match our audiences, and to see the audience breakdown that are visiting our site and, and we’ve integrated this into the into our HubSpot CRM, we’re a very high touch company, who needs to pick two or three companies and grow with those companies, right, integrate with them to make sure our product fits what they do. And we receive an enormous spike. Whenever we participate in actual events, those type of experiences are like rocket fuel to our business, we use medium, of course, for our blogs, when we’re talking about some of the specific technical aspects of AI medium is a much better place to do that the other way requires a bit more effort. And we’re now working on the second one of these and these are reports about your industry or reports about your particular space. Right. And so when I say reports on that space, so we’re you know, we produced a little bit of a report last quarter about visual AI and and the rise of this and what you may expect in the future, we’re working now on one on a little bit on sustainability and how AI can help with that over the long term. And so those reports, focus your attention on what are the USPS that you have, and how you fit within the ecosystem in the tech in the sector that you’re working. But they also are really, really good for generating leads, because people want to see what you have. And if you written, if you spent time and effort to write something really good, then, you know, people will want to look at it. And we want to sort of reference it, I would encourage everyone to sort of think hard about their industry, and deliver their learning. So this is one of the core values of Delphi is where possible, we all want to help each other to circumstance, and to where possible, we want to share our learnings, this is what we know, this is what we understand this is what we found out hopefully that then creates a dialogue with other people in the industry is Oh yeah, I saw this thing too. But I also saw this. And so through the blogs, and through the reports and through, you know, the face to face meetings, that conversation begins to take on a network. And so you can build your own network through using these ideas to connect to real people, because at the end of the day, you know, generating content for growth is one thing, but what you really want to do is you want to generate actual relationships with people at the end. And so if you keep in your mind that whatever you’re doing in terms of your blogs, or in terms of a pose, even if it’s to get to a customer, that customer is a human being, and you want to find a way to reach across using the medium of language, or visual signs and symbols to connect with that person.

Ricky Willianto 13:32
What are some of the challenges that you face? And what are some of the failures that you’ve encountered that help you finally get to this point,

Charles Allard Jr 13:39
the biggest challenge for any entrepreneur and for any business person is people, right? How do I attract the best people? How do I motivate them? And how do I retain them? Right? You cannot take any of your employees for granted at any time. I think constantly about all of my employees, are they happy? What can I do to make them happier? How can I help them fulfil their own dreams? How can I help them manage their own careers? How can I help them achieve sort of the next level of what it is that they want?

Ricky Willianto 14:10
That’s definitely something that I did not expect. When I started my own company, I would say right now I spent about 50 60% thinking about my team rather than anything else is because I feel like it’s so it’s so fundamental to a good business, you know, having good people being able to grow them grow with them, and let them be part of your journey.

Charles Allard Jr 14:28
So yeah, so yeah, that’s a really that’s a really important part of it. And then wow, you know, failures. I mean, so many failures loss, there’s, you know, you’ve been through, we’ve been through so many and the the number of successful startups is only about 10% 90% of startups fail. The odds are that you and I are going to fail and you know, a couple years now we’ll be laughing Oh, yeah, we were we thought we had it. But you know, maybe we’ll be one of the 10% and a lot of these they will just go to an accelerator because they’re helped me but we shown sort of that the accelerator

We’ll give you cash and keep you alive, but they just keep you alive for a little longer, the failure rates the same, you just don’t fail, you know, now you failed three years from now, right? So the real key is to align all of your different bits of the business. So if you’re a technology company, you have sort of like engineering, your product, you’ve got sales and marketing grouped together different if you want, and you’ve got the shared services, the shared services, like HR, and legal and finance and those sort of things, right. So each of those has to be aligned towards the same mission so that if everyone is not rolling in the same way, that the company is going to fall apart. So how might that fall? fall apart? Well, you can say, you know, the engineering team didn’t really build something that the sales and marketing, yeah, could sell. And then they say, well, we didn’t sell and the company fails, because damn engineers built the stupid thing. And then the engineers are like, Well, you didn’t tell me what you wanted what your customers want. I just built what I was supposed to build, are they I think it’s, it’s, it’s easy. In the early days, when you have like three people, four people in the team, once you grow beyond like 10, I think that’s where like all this misalignment, and silos start to form even harder now that we have to work remotely, right. So we use a particular methodology called the the boss methodology, which is the basic operating spreadsheet, which is developed by an incredible entrepreneur named Greg Shepard, and you can check out his podcast and his stuff online. If you look for Greg Shepard, he’s really a very, very lovely guy, enormous heart. He’s one of my mentors, and he teaches me every day, even when I’m not talking to him things about myself. So he invented this this spreadsheet, which sort of starts with, okay, who is it that you’re selling to? Like, what’s your exit? Where are you going to get the company? First of all, you’re not going to be a billionaire. That’s, you know, everyone out there who’s an opera says, Oh, yeah, I’m going to build a billion dollar company bullshit. You’re not going to build a billion dollar Google site. Maybe I said a bad word. Sorry. So you’re, you’re you’re not going to build a billion dollar company. You’re not going to be Ilan boss, or jack Ma. Do you see that? Do you see that? Like when you’re away? Or investors cap every time you hear a pitch? Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

to their faces, you look, you don’t want to be on what’s the guy’s crazy, he’s absolutely loony. He wants to go die on Mars, not in the crash, but he wants to go there and then die. I mean, I don’t want to die. Because I want to stay round with my family and friends. And, you know, as long as possible. But you, you, you know, if you can define where you’re trying to get your company, where you’re trying to get that exit. From there, you can back out all sorts of interesting things, which is, okay, if I’m going to get the exit, how much am I going to sell my company to this potential buyer for right, what have they typically purchased companies for? What multiples? are they buying it on? If it did? are they buying it on top line? are you saving the money? Are you earning the money? If that’s true, you know, whatever the duration that? Who are the people within that company that you’re going to target? And can you get customers in common with your potential buyer, when I say customers in common, right. So if you’re, you know, if you’re looking to sell, for example, bolts to car manufacturers, and you say, Okay, here’s Toyota, and they have seat manufacturers, and they have engine manufacturers, and they have, you know, hinge manufacturers, and you want to sell your particular type of tool to those customers. So eventually go to Toyota and say, Look, I’m already aligned with all of your customers, you should be able to buy me and I know, you buy companies at five times top line revenue, I’m showing a million dollars in annual returning revenue and Arr, you should buy me for $5 million.

From that also comes all of your other bits, right? Remember, I talked about the sales and marketing. So your marketing is pitching to those customers in a way that they can understand your sales is trying to get people to understand what your product is. So they did pay you money for your engineering is building the machine and make those bolts that eventually will sell the toy and you know, the type of machine that you need to make, because you’ve investigated the type of bolts that Toyota really, really uses and needs. And so the the type of products that you’re building are for that company. In addition, you have all of your other bits around it, which are the HR, so you’re attracting people who are for your industry, you’re your finance, and you you you know, you know how much money you need to earn to sell to that company, you need a million dollars in annual training revenue. To get that you’re gonna have to spend this much in advertising, you’re going to have to hire this many people. So you can have an entire budget that is focused on that exit. And it’s just a matter of can you execute in that time so that when you go if you need if you need funding and you go to a VC, it’s not like yeah, I need a million dollars because I’m gonna I just need to hire people I’m going to because it’s going to be the right thing. You say no, I need $1,000,136.53 because that’s how much it’s going to cost.

To get me to sell my company for $5 million within 18 months, and here’s a bunch of all the way down there. So for delta phi is that, like what you’re optimising for? Are you optimising for an exit, you’re always optimising for an exit, right? You’re always optimising for the exit. Because if you’re optimising for only for growth, or only for sales, you can fall into one of two traps. And, and or there’s actually more but the two main traps you can fall into is that you are you continue to build for the growth, and you fall out of favour because someone else has, has already found your solution, and is made it cheaper was done a little bit better than you. And so suddenly, you start losing market share. And then you go down to commodification and you’re you know, you’re in this rush to who can give a cheap and then you know, someone in in in a place like China or India does it for almost free, and then you’re dead, because they can just walk you know,

Ricky Willianto 20:54
what do you have to say about like founders or companies that want to stay private? I think there’s a lot of companies that is that, you know, founders whose dreams not to exit, right, I think, and they’re, they’re really immensely successful as well, I think, example would be off top my head Basecamp. The other one is convicted, they’re doing like, millions and millions of dollars in revenue every single year, if not every single month. And there’s no intention of exiting. How do you like what do you optimise for, for founders?

Charles Allard Jr 21:21
Like, so jealous, so jealous of them?

I mean, they’re profitable as well, right? Yeah, they’re probably profitable and multi million dollar in revenue on a monthly basis. So so there’s there are, we’ll talk about Warren Buffett in a minute, one of his his his ways he thinks about it. But remember, there’s also another sort of problem that that can happen is that you raise a lot of money to show that you can attract big clients. And then once you get one or two clients to get other clients, you’ve got to raise even more money. And you get into this endless loop of just raising more and more money for nothing, and you get into the Uber, or the we work sort of thing is I need more money, because more money, which I need more money, and then you’re completely overvalued, and no one’s gonna want to get in you basically, you know, you’re dead. Therefore, a lot of people have asked you, but the company as a going concern is just it’s too burdened with with unrealistic expectations. Then there’s what sort of Berkshire Hathaway looks at and they say, Well, you know, he’s Do you have a moat, given moat around your business? Which Warren Buffett sort of thing. So this is some sort of unassailable, that he did not completely understand. But what is it really, really difficult to sail sort of moat around your business? So the barriers to entry are so high. So maybe you have a quasi monopoly in your business, right. So something like Google in the search has a monopoly in it, like Bing. I mean, Microsoft is filled with some incredibly intelligent, and world class geniuses in their company, and they’ve not been able to knock with being off, they haven’t been able to knock Google off its perch because Google’s monopoly, right, and what they do, so if you can build that monopoly, that’s your moat. Or if you have some technology that no one else can can really, you know, do so something like Kiva robotics, right? built this amazing technology, no one else had to do, eventually, you know, a Chinese company bought bought one of the robots and reverse engineered it, but that’s kind of cheating. So you can create these these robots. And then you say, Wait, I’m gonna sell it to Amazon. So then the Amazon basically takes over key key robotics and runs it in warehouses around the world. And in a sense, you can sell yourself to another, you know, another company, public or private. But if you want to keep it for for, for private forever, it’s possible, then what you’re optimising for is you’re optimising for for, you know, sustainability. And not necessarily for an exit, right? You your metric is going to be something around sustaining the business as a as a going concern for so it’s kind of like a lifestyle company, if you think something like Basecamp is, in a sense is no different than something like your, your corner, your corner. drycleaners, right, the dry cleaner just wants to be able to exist and put food on the plate and continue to run that business profitably, for you know, for a lifetime. And possibly, you know, pass it on to accept accept that basically means making like, dozens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars only on like, 30 3040 employees, which is amazing. That’s a dream. Yes. I mean, everyone does, you know, there are, that’s the best laundry, that’s the best, like, you know, he’s a great

Unknown Speaker 24:30
example.

Unknown Speaker 24:32
monopoly on it as well. Yeah. But I mean, look, eventually, they either, you know, they either have the monopoly like Google does, right, and then you just have this, this, you know, unassailable mode or someone comes in and finds a way to do what they do better and it gets them out. I mean, at this point, you know, in their in their life cycle, they’re probably more towards the unassailable moat than than others and may continue to exist for as long as they can keep up their you know, their costs monopoly.

Ricky Willianto 25:01
Yeah. And why did why do you come like c delta phi going that in the next like, you know, three, four years? Like, what do you want to achieve for the company?

Charles Allard Jr 25:11
Well, I think I think during this conversation, I’ve sort of made it clear what I want to achieve. Right? I want to

Unknown Speaker 25:17
is that is that the time horizon?

Unknown Speaker 25:19
The show, but, but certainly our idea is to build our product to be so nice and so attractive, that our buyers come flocking to us and say, whatever you want, just name your price, Charles.

Unknown Speaker 25:38
That sort of a dream, I’m pretty sure that’s not going to happen. But it’s nice to think of that drifting off. So that, you know, you think in three years, Ricky, what you’ve done is so superb, you know, we’ll get we’ll make you CEO, and we’ll give you all these options and shares in your please do this again, I guess. So that’s our dream, whether or not we’ll get there, I don’t know. But a more realistic dream is is to hit our metrics, so that we can then shop ourselves around to potential customers, and crucially add value to their business, because that’s what we’re trying to do is to build something that adds value to someone else’s business, right, our role in the world is not to create, we’re our role is to create something of value for someone else. We’re a service business.

Unknown Speaker 26:28
Yeah,

Ricky Willianto 26:30
I really, I really liked the approach that you’ve taken with your business, I think you have a very structured approach to kind of a company building. And I think a lot of things you mentioned is very, it’s very much about the vision, you know, what you’re trying to achieve, and then like working backwards, aligning every single element of the business down to the team, you know, towards that vision. I think that’s great. Now, I want to kind of round off this conversation with a quick fire round. And I have five questions for you that I need you to answer very, very quickly. The first one, are you ready? Okay, cool. The first one, what is the one metric that you care most about now?

Charles Allard Jr 27:05
customer attention.

Ricky Willianto 27:07
Okay. What is the one software you swear by to help you grow your company?

Charles Allard Jr 27:12
Well, that’s difficult, but I’d have to say Microsoft Office because Excel is the single biggest productivity tool ever created. And anyone finances Oh, yeah, Excel. We love x.

Ricky Willianto 27:23
Yeah, a lot of people can’t live without it. What is your favourite growth strategy? growth hack? That you’ve tried before?

Charles Allard Jr 27:30
Yeah, it’s it’s defining your personas, right? defining who you’re going to be selling to, and who you’re appealing to. So from their flow, all of your content and all of the strategy that you that, you have to sell your product.

Ricky Willianto 27:46
Sounds good. And I think the whole show, we’ve talked about how, like, you know, you’ve managed to bring the company to this stage of like, scaling, but what is your favourite, go to resources for your own growth?

Charles Allard Jr 29:00
knows, but I mentioned because he was really good at the three elements you need for any company, which is vision, planning, and execution. So he had a vision of what he wanted Singapore to be, he was able to tell people very clearly what that vision was. He planned around that using experts around the world. So for example, he writes in his in his autobiography about how he decided to reform the Armed Forces by going to the other experts, which was Israel, because Israel is a small country, surrounded by people who want to kill it in the same way as the war at the time was surrounded by as a small country, surrounded by people who love to wipe it off the face of the earth. Our interests are aligned, please help me and then good at the execution, right. I mean, you know, his his autobiography was, yeah, they all said I was wrong. And I was right. Hahaha. And yeah, he was right most of the time, but those, I just think that you know, everyone was, Oh, well, I want to be like Elon Musk or jack ma or those sorts of things.

You know, people, but we don’t need to look to other business leaders to give us ideas on how growth can be achieved, because there are plenty of examples of people who work in other sorts of industries, other than tech who’ve been really good at growth in politics and literature in art. I mean, if you think someone like Andy Warhol, wow, whatever the visionary that guy was, we’re going to create this sort of pop art, and I’m going to sell it and just put my signature on him, we’re going to sell millions and millions of dollars, to get an amazing way to scale. You know, what was just a simple one piece sort of art for, you know, our business. Really amazing people.

Ricky Willianto 30:41
Yeah, I love how you feel like tap into that idea of looking beyond just the context of business or technology or for inspiration. That’s a great bookend to the to the call. And finally, I think one last question is, what is the best way for people to reach it?

Charles Allard Jr 30:55
Well, LinkedIn is is great.

Ricky Willianto 30:57
Sounds good. Well, that’s it. And Charles, thanks so much for your time. Well, thank you, Ricky.

Charles Allard Jr 31:01
It’s really been interesting. You asked me some questions that I wasn’t prepared to answer. And they made me think a little bit, which is really good. And as I said at the start, I just love talking with other entrepreneurs, and you really made my day. So thank you very much.

Ricky Willianto 31:16
You’re very welcome. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Check out other episodes to hear more growth stories and hacks from experts who have been there and done that. You can find our show on iTunes, Spotify, or via our website www.careerfh.com slash growth multiplier. See you next time.